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E170: Tech's Vibe Shift, TikTok ban debate, Vertical AI boom, Florida bans lab-grown meat & more

Why do you always go christopher watkin whenever you do these outros why do you do that thanks for listening to the all in podcast wow david sachs poignant points about regulatory capture freeberg loves mock meets not for me chamas everyone loves a great dictator we'l see you next time. Oh podcast w love you boys so good one your better impressions everyone's got their superpower that's your super nasty jal butu it don'tu. I'm coming on i'm coming on all in let your winners ride david and instead we open source it to the fans and they've just gone crazy with it love you.

Queen. Hey freeberg you want to tell them about your new family members. Oh my god did he get more dogs is he trying to dave foro this again. Oh miss pacher. So i'm like working all day friday i'm like wiped out i'd been in. I can't remember. Oh yeah. I was in santa cruz i made it all the way back up through the traffic i get up to the house i've been texting and calling all afternoon no response. I'm like what theck is going on normally she'l text me like just walk through the door open the door to my car every little thing so for her to not be calling me back as something's up.

I walk in the house the kids are there they're jumping up and down. Daddy we got two new dogs and i'm like what the are you talking about we didn't get two new dogs what are you think mommy's got two new dogs and then mommy took him to the vet she'l be back in a few minutes i'm like no way. And i had some friends coming over for dinner they walk in the house the kids are jumping up and down 2 minutes later walks in the house these two dogs that sh someone found in a parking lot and jose and they couldn't find a home for these dogs and they were like the dogs don't have a home decided i'l take them into my home. And i'm like you this is why you didn't call me you didn't text me. I walked out the room i'm like it's over it's been nice knowing you the kids are screaming daddy you can't get rid of the dogs they're our dogs now these are the best dogs so now we have four dogs how much was the vet belt and then i come down that night huge in the dining room like multiple diarrhea plopped all over the floor i walked downstairs the whole house was smelling of poop. Oh my god my house has become like you know those carnival trains that used to go from city to city back in the 19th century if one of those trains like fell over and spilled open that's basically what my house has become it just smells like poo and hay and there's clowns and children running around and i live in there did i ever tell you the story of chuck norris the chihuahua.

No. So i'm going to a wedding i'm in like arizona i'm driving like on one of these giant like arizona streets and a chihuahua runs across this like eight lane boulevard. Whatever. And i'm like. Oh my god i'm like dodging around it. And it goes into the other side of traffic. And i see a car and he just the dog ducks he misses the car i'm like. Oh thank god my wife is screaming her head off the dog gets whacked by another car. And it goes rolling down the highway i make a u-turn i block it the dog's knocked out on the side of the road i run up to the dog i pick it up i'm like a this dog's gonna die you know. And i get in the car i said let's just take it to a vet. Whatever. And i'm saying goodbye to the dog the dog's like looking up at me it's in bad shape we go to a vet i give it to the vet we go to the wedding my wife who is like got this big heart decides she's gonna stay with the dog so i go to the wedding i go to the you know. Opening night party. She's with she's at the 24-hour vet sitting with this dog waiting for it to die in hospice. Oh my god the dog doesn't die the dog survives sorry now it's monday. And i get the alert on my credit card $122,000. Yeah. 12. Yeah ,000 on this dead dog i'm like the dog survives i bring the dog back to the bay area the dog's fine i can't believe it. But you know it's got like a broken leg all the stuff. But you know he's generally he the dog's alive. So i put him on social media i'm like anybody want chuck norris a dog that cannot die this is like the toughest chihuahua you ever seen some of these rich people in san francisco living on like a certain street on broadway or something like that turns out they're like they're heirs to something famous they live in like three states they got a private jet all this nonsense they say we'l take the dog they're friends with a couple of our mutuals. So i'm like this is great. I'm going to get the 12 grand from them cu. I looked these people up they got a private jet i don't got a private jet they got three houses so they come down to pick up the dog with their driver and everything and we're delivering the dog and i tell jade. Hey can we let them know about the $122,000 bill maybe they'l pick it up or we can split it's like a larry dav and my wife is like if you bring that up with them i'm divorcing you we have to pay the 12,000. So i pay the 12,000 they proceed to then send us pictures of chuck norris on private jets you know for years to this day chuck norris living this life and i paid 12 grand to save this freeberg told me this story i found it so hilarious.

But i told him you know after we got joker when jason when you came to visit us in for of theadom me joker had like jaria so he was just everywhere. And you know we got through it. And then three months ago when you guys were at my house for poker shawn made octopus and left some raw octopus in a garbage bag outside and joker and joker ate it. And he got such terrible poisoning we had to take him to the to the emergency animal hospital where he stayed for like a week that was by the way 17k but ever since he came back he's been completely incontinent. So i was telling freeer that nat. And i now just wake up half an hour early and what we do now from 6:30 to usually 645 is we're cleaning up some form of feces that he's left somewhere in the house we have to go and find where did he take a let's go clean it up and. The worst one was he once pooped through one of the greates with this really bad poo. And i had to go and just fetch it all out it was just disgusting. Oh right in the gr fantastic. Right in the gr. Yeah. So there you have it folks go adopt a pet there's your ringing endorsement 4 to $177,000 in veterinary bills and cleaning up all day long and replacing carpets listen we got a big docket today i know it's a bit early in the year.

But i am going to add a new category or i'm proposing a new category would love to hear your feedback on it for the 2024 besties most based ceo lots of options to choose from right now which we'l get into in a minute but there seems to be a bit of a vibe shift happening in t during peak zer and cancel culture 2019 to 2021 era seemed like ceos were a little vigilant about what they would say you know the tim cooks the sundar but something has clearly changed tech ceos have gotten radically candid and fired their comms group two great examples this week that we were talking about jensen wong the ceo of nvidia had this awesome clip when speaking at stanford's graduate school of business i think one of my great advantages is that i have very low expectations. And i mean that most of the stanford graduates have very high expectations people with very high expectations have very low resilience and unfortunately resilience matters in success i don't know how to teach it to you except for i hope suffering happens to you to this day i use the word the phrase pain and suffering inside our company with great glee boy this is going to cause a lot of pain and suffering and i mean that in a happy way because you want to train you want to refine the character of your company you want greatness out of them and greatness is not intelligence greatness comes from character and character isn't formed out of smart people it's formed out of people who suffered and then next up paler ceo alex karp called out the coked up short sellers on cnpc i love burning the short sellers like almost nothing makes a human happier than taking the lines of cocaine and away from these short sellers who like are going short on a truly great american company. Not just ours but i just love pulling down great american companies so that they can pay for their coke and the best thing that could happen to them is we will provide we will lead their coke dealers to their homes after they can't pay their bills that's like one of my surely all short sellers.

Yeah. Well you know go ahead do your thing we'l do our thing there you have it folks of course we had elon's great good for you at some new york times conference always candid and even zuckerberg he's been getting a little based he did a whole video about how the apple vision pro was when compared to meta quest 2 he's getting a little frisky on the social media freeberg is the vibe shift real it seems like a lot of people are less worried about cancel culture as they were three years ago so i don't know if it's just in silicon valley broadly in media and broadly culturally there seems to be a move away from cancel culture mentality and people are speaking their mind more which is. Yeah. I think obviously positive and refreshing saak you're a big fan of freedom of speech your thoughts on this vibe shift is it is this related to cancel culture kind of ending and journalists just not being able to cancel people because they misspoke or were a little spicy in their takes. Well i like the fact that these ceos are all being colorful in their remarks and candid and interesting and that's always a good thing and in each of these cases i kind of like what they had to say. But i think that you might or we collectively might be reading a little bit too much into this i mean at the end of the day what sacred cows are they really challenging what real dangerous truths are they speaking what real risks are they taking i just don't put any of the things that they're saying are doing in the same category as say what elon has been doing in terms of taking on the powers that be in terms of rolling back censorship and promoting free speech on x i mean elon i think has taken some real risks in doing that. And you see that he's paying the price with all these government investigations and the voiding of his compensation package that i think is just in a slightly different category of true risk-taking by speaking truth to power or allowing the masses to speak truth to power compared to what these other guys are doing. And i'm not disparaging any of them. But you know look at them one by one i mean alex kart made a colorful joke at the expense of short traders i agree. But it's not really a risky remark jensen wang is giving some tough love to stanford students he's giving them i think a good lesson of stop being so entitled go get some real life experience be resilient okay great message.

I saw the zuckerberg clip liked it as well he's basically speaking from a place of passion about his own product and comparing it to apple. Okay great. That's what he's supposed to do i don't see any of those ceos take again if you want to compare it to elon taking a really dangerous political stance in fact remember when zuckerberg got dragged to cap hill and gave that testimony and they demanded that he give that apology he did it i mean genu flected i thought that word was banned on this pod only one applied to me anybody else can be genu. I mean i thought he was just showing some humanity which is you know kind of paradoxical look. I get it in that moment. But i'm just saying that like if you want to put it in the same category as elon the thing to do would have been to punch back. And i think in that moment it was who it was josh holly the thing to do would have been to say no it's you who are exploiting the misery and suffering of all of these people by trying to score political points.

So. Anyway i super based. Yeah. That would have been super based so all i'm saying is that it's one thing for these founders and ceos to be colorful and candid or whatever that's all great but have they really taken political courage your thoughts jamath on based ceos. Well i think jason the takeaway. I think you're almost on the right point but not quite i don't think this is based or not based i think the point is everybody is exhausted with the multiple layers of word scrambled gymnastics that people have had to play and they're like enough's enough i think the more interesting way to look at this is that there was a fewe period where a lot of companies were under a lot of pressure and folks felt that they couldn't say what was on their mind to really fix the problems that they saw now you have you know both of the companies and the ceos you pointed out are firing on all cylinders as far as anybody can tell from the outside and there's a certain level of political capital that comes with that and they're choosing to spend it. And i think that's the interesting takeaway which is as these companies become successful again as tech reemerges again from this multi-year malaise are folks going to find their voice or not. And i think that's the big point which is that it seems at least that we can see this next generation of winning companies seems to have ceos that will take a different path they'l be maybe closer than elon then closer to a politician. Yeah. It's i loved wong's comments just about his secret weapon is he has incredibly low expectations by the way if you had said if you had said that comment a few years ago the whole pain and suffering thing would somebody would have said i felt triggered it touched my childhood trauma you know i had x y and z happen to me. And it's not that those people don't have valid claims. But they would have aired it in a way that tried to get him cancelled effectively. Yeah he would be out of touch he would be talking down to people he'd be a billionaire telling people like to suck it up what and.

By the way in fairness i bet you there are people that felt that way even today when listening to his clip the thing that is different though was the rest of us who also have had pain and suffering in our lives retweeted it and was just like this is 100%. Awesome. Yeah. I mean finally candid advice elon used to always say happiness equals this was his happiness formula happiness equals expectation reality minus expectations. And so if your expectations are really high and reality doesn't hit it you're going to be sad and if you keep your expectations low and reality is you know.

Okay. Or good. Yeah you could be happy in life but freberg i just love of those quotes maybe some thoughts about suffering and how hard it is you're back in the ceo's seat how's that been going for you generally speaking how hard is it compared to being a capital allocator i'm curious i was going to talk to you about that offline. Anyway i probably have an unhealthy affinity for suffering i think that if you come from certain backgrounds you're sort of trained that's the place that your unconscious tends to want to be and i think that also some people call it chips on shoulders some people call it motivation i mean look at your friend elon how much suffering he puts his himself through i think it's a requisite to greatness is you have to really find ways to sacrifice now if i've said this a lot there's a reason a lot of people that have had success in their career don't end up being great entrepreneurs because as soon as you're faced with failure for the first time it doesn't pattern match to what's happened to you historically i go to a good school i get good grades i go to stanford i get a degree everything about every step you do you're told if you do x you will get y and then you do x. And you get y and you repeat and at some point you're considered successful in your education in your career and so on if you then decide that on entrepreneurship is the path for you realize that entrepreneurship is that there is no ifx then y there is ifx. Maybe y maybe z maybe a hundred other things that'l smack you in the face. And that experience is shockingly different for people that have historically followed a path of success of what's defined as success culturally socially.

And i think that's really what he's speaking to if you've grown up where all of your expectations have not been met or many of the expectations have not been met you realize that persistence grit perseverance relentlessness these are the necessary traits to be successful in entrepreneurship and i think that i find myself much happier in that condition than in any other condition. And it's why i'm actually very happy in the work i'm doing right now. Yeah i think it that resonates a lot with me and all the entrepreneurs that i back they all have that chip and you got to be careful not to get caught up in the trappings and really focus on solving problems if you think about what a ceo does all day you hire the smartest team you know you give them the biggest challenges as much autonomy as you can and then they return back to you with all the problems the smartest people you could find to join your team can't fix so then your life becomes essentially you know what's left over that is the most brutal to solve and you know there's only a certain percentage of people who can do that day and day out just relentlessly be how do you reconcile how do you reconcile that statement jason with the proposition that people should become entrepreneurs generally i think that this really res this really challenges me whenever people say i'm thinking about starting a company my first response is no don't like you have to be told over and over again to not start a company to test if they actually have the resilience and grit necessary just to take the first step of starting the company i notion that everyone should be encouraged to start a company and entrepreneurism is a. Is a career choice i think is a false notion i think that most people are not psychologically equipped for being successful in entrepreneurship. Yeah. You're. 100% right. And i've gotten in my later years as we run like found university of these programs when people are applying and we only accept 10% into the programs and then only invest in 10% of those so net like less than 1% get funded you know i'l ask them they're like.

Oh can you give us money so i can get a co-founder. And i'm like you know what you failed the first test of being an entrepreneur you know the first test of being an entrepreneur is can you convince two or three people to go on this crazy journey with you because it's important and without money and you know people expect oh you're going to just give them the money because they have an interesting idea. And then i asked them what's your skill what do you do at the startup do you sell the product do you build the product and a lot of people do not have the wherewithal to add a skill that the world needs being a developer a ux designer a salesperson whatever it is right they don't have any skill. And then they also have no ability to convince somebody else with skills to start a company you if you if you can't have marketable important skills yourself that you taught yourself on your own through sheer force of motivation and will and opening up youtube which really is not hard people like anybody can learn to code to be a ux designer to be a salesperson all this is on some online course some book some youtube video some podcast so just learn some marketable skills that a startup needs and if you can't do that you shouldn't be a founder i think the point is that everybody's capable of being a founder and anybody can and should start a company it's just that very few can finish a company and that is the resilience part where there's just so many ups and downs. And you have to be able to roll and survive and you have to just problem solve constantly. And yeah there are very few people that are cut up for it you have to be comfortable with failure you have to be comfortable with expectations not being met that's the important point that he's making i can't tell you how important it was early in my career i had several cold calling jobs where i cold called college kids i cold called alumni i cold called ceos i had three different cold calling jobs and getting rejection after rejection failing in my life i didn't get into any schools except for berkeley because berkeley didn't take teacher recommendations teachers i did not do well in school and then playing poker taught me a lot because playing poker you lose hands you lose hands you lose hands you lose hands you have to just make sure that you're making the right decisions and over time the money will come to you the positive ev will be there but failure and persisting through failure i think was one of the most important traits i had to develop before i was even ready to start a company because all that's happening every day is failure when i had my first magazine i didn't understand i had just printed photo copies of. And i had like 2,000 copies of this magazine silicon aly reporter and i didn't know how to get them in people's hands. So i just got a luggage cart like a literal luggage cart i put them in the luggage cart and i walk walked around lower manhattan and i just dropped them off at internet companies and i dropped them off at cafes. And then i went to all the village voice boxes and i just slotted them in between the village ro and miraculously people found it. And then they would subscribe and you know whatever it took was the approach.

All right everybody let's get to our second topic it's a mini topic but did open ai just get caught with their hand in the cookie jar or the training data cookie jar open ai cto was interviewed by the wall street journal this week during the interview you probably saw this if you're on x it trended she was asked what data did opene use to train sora if you don't know what sor is we talked about it here it's that incredible you know video create you know type in a text prompt get a video back model and let's watch this clip and then discuss it what data was used to train sora we used publicly available data and licensed data so on youtube i'm actually not sure about that okay videos from facebook instagram you know if they were publicly available available yet publicly available to use there might be that data. But i'm not sure i'm not confident about it. Let me start with you. Chath. What are your thoughts here and just her not being super prepared there to answer a question or is this a cookie jar situation what do you think i mean you got to think the cto of an organization that whose job it is to build models based on training data knows where the training data is from my interpretation of that answer is that she is hesitating because she doesn't want to make a statement against interest. Right i want to show you guys something i had a friend of mine somebody we all know who's deep in the heart of this ai stuff he was he came to my office. And he showed me this one really interesting thing which is when you launch chat gpt and if you go into the microphone but you say nothing so just wait a few seconds turn on the microphone wait a few seconds and turn it off i'l just do it right now just to show you it comes back.

And it says thank you for watching which is typically what it shows you when you auto watch a bunch of youtube videos now why is that interesting. Well if you say nothing right the model has clearly then is guessing that whenever you see you hear silence that probabilistically the next best thing to translate that into is thank you for watching which would mean that the training happened on a bunch of content where thank you for watching was the next obvious thing so that when there's silence and the most obvious place where that happens is in youtube i don't know i thought that was an interesting little thing that he pointed out to me. I don't know if anybody's actually explored this. But if it is true and google decides they have an issue with it that's not good for these folks freberg your thoughts. I think it's fine. I don't know why this is a controversial thing wellow i mean it's obvious she's kind of lying on camera she definitely knows where the training data came from and it feels like. C. I mean i mean what youtube is public. So what's wrong with watching youtube to teach a model stuff. Well you'd have to get a license to make a derivative working because we've seen open ai has been doing that they're in a lawsuit right now with the new york times. And they failed to negotiate their license so is they're making a derivative work model they've licensed other people's data. Right. Yeah to get access to it that's not publicly available you can go to youtube downloader and download all this data you know what's crazy i heard from someone at google that under the terms of service google's not allowed to train on youtube data remember my i made this point a couple weeks ago about how important youtube data is i think there'd be this really ironic handicap that google's done to itself where anyone else can access and download and watch youtube data to train models but google cannot i don't know if there's any clarity on that. But it's a pretty crazy fact pattern. But yeah. Youtube's on the internet and i feel like anything that's on the open internet should be watchable by these models i don't consider training models to be generation of derivative work that's my position and that's a position that opening eye is taking the other side of that position cu they're going around licensing data sax any other thoughts here about this corrup level well look i kind of agree with both you and freeberg in terms of the part that i agree with freeberg i think that this issue is kind of more of the same of what we've been talking about for a while which is clearly open ai trained its model on publicly available data that was available on the on the internet i agree with freeberg that fair use doctrine should be applied to that i know that you have a different point of view on that jal i don't know if we need to rehash that i understand that you don't think fair use should apply in any event i think it's pretty clear that open ai train sora using you know available data on the internet and that probably included youtube the part where i agree with you jcal is that i don't know if i would say that she's lying per se. But i think she's probably concerned that if she comes right out and answers the question as directly as she could that it could be a problem for them in all these lawsuits that they're now facing you know again think that i would take the side in those lawsuits that fer should be allowed but i think that probably she is being careful here because they are facing so many lawsuits about this training data it's going to be pretty clear. Chth. I think what the courts will decide here which is who's opportunity is it to make a sora in the world if disney owns a massive collection of ip and somebody should be able to use that ip to make derivative works should it be sora or should it be disney itself.

And so i think the journalists know full well what they're doing and now the journalists have their hooks into this for a very real reason the journalists are also content creators so now we're going to have this you know two sides forming journalist i just worry that these folks are not technical enough to make this decision and you know when it goes into a court how is a judge really going to understand the nuances of this to make a to make a call on this or the jury it's going to be a big education process. Yeah or the jury. Yeah. Speaking of ai vertical ai startups are starting to make some noise we all know about large language models we've talked about them here if you listen to this program you know about open ai google's gemini previously known as bard anthropic claude all this stuff their general purpose they've been trained on the open internet as we were just discussing so they can answer questions about almost anything. And. Yeah sometimes it's correct sometimes they're incorrect. But it's showing promise there is another school of thought here that's emerging in startups vertical ai these companies are kind of taking a job title a role in society and they are building vertical apps harvey is ai for lawyers a bridge is doing an ai notaker for doctors saves them hours a day according to them tax gpt is an ai tax assistant nc is ai for customer support that's brett teller's new startup this week a startup called cognition debuted a tool called devon they're calling it an ai software engineer the demos went viral on x. Uh you probably seen them all over the place and in the news if you watch it you can see devon fixing bugs in real time fine-tuning an ai model building apps end to end and people are speculating devon was built on gpt 4 from open ai.

That's not confirmed but according to the ceo devon was built by tweaking reasoning and long-term planning into an existing llm here's how it ranks against other major models on coding benchmarks they're building all these benchmarks to test each language model and as you can see it's according to this chart and according to their data doing much better than just a generic language model kind of makes sense jamat did you see these demos this week i think i saw you on the group chat talking about it and what was your take on these role-based vertical startups. Oh i think this is so powerful. I mean it's incredible because we're measuring this progress in like what week over week feels like that. Yeah. I think the point that you should take away is that the most of these very difficult in impenetrable job types for the average person if this if you said to them hey become a developer that's like a complicated journey. Right. It's just going to be now like a command line interface where you just kind of describe in english what you want to do and all of this stuff will just happen behind the scenes and it'l be totally automated so that'l grow the number of people that can use these tools at the same time it'l make the developers. I think even more valued because you're going to need people in the guts of these models and in the code that it generates because it's not always going to work perfectly there's always going to be some kind of hallucination some stuff is not going to compile now the demos that they did though were incredible they were able to find errors they were able to remediate errors in code that's. I mean i just i think it's really special you've been on co-pilots for the past year talking about that this is slightly different we're moving from hey here's a co-pilot somebody helping a developer to hey here's a developer working and now they have a supervisor so what do you think of these sort of role-based agents and how quickly we went from year one co-piloting to. Okay now they're the pilot and we're sitting in the co-pilot seat watching them fly the plane. Yeah. Well look f first of all everyone's working on autonomous coding or working towards that this is like one of the core most obvious use cases of llms because code is text and it can also be run through a compiler to debug it so you can also get to in theory you can get to high levels of accuracy. Yet although in the example that you gave jason this new product was only at 133% so there's still a long way to go but the potential is clearly there so a lot of companies are working on some variation of this idea devon is i guess you could call it an agent first approach and i think that's very cool for generating new software projects but where i think this gets much trickier and is much more difficult is when you're working in existing code bases and just to talk my own book for a second we're an investor in a company called source graph they have a product called cody and their whole approach is context first as opposed to agent first it's all about getting the co-pilot to work inside of existing code bases so different companies are coming at this from different approaches github co-pilot i think is kind of more like cody where it's all about making an existing code base more useful whereas devon again is starting with i think net new code bases but that's going to demo really well. And so that's what you're seeing is like these really cool demos in any event the larger picture here is that we are going to get better at better at cod cing autonomously. I guess you could say. And i don't know if it gets ever gets to 100% where you don't need coders anymore. But it's going to make coders much more productive over time you're going to get this huge multiplier effect on the ability to write code and that's really exciting for a bunch of obvious reasons free br.

We've been tracking this evolution from you know. Gmail guess the next word guess the next phrase guess the next sentence to co-pilots now we have these role-based agent based solutions that startups are pursuing what's next if we follow this thread what would the next evolution here be well the big push has been for this notion of agi to replace a human. And i think what we're seeing is software that replaces a specific human doing a specific thing like being a lawyer being an accountant being an art director if you think about the internet when the internet which was like networking software and the capabilities that arose from the connection of all these computers during the internet era the innovation was everyone tried to create a business model which was how do you take an existing vertical business and put it on the internet i think what we're seeing in this era is everyone's taking a vertical human and creating a vertical version of a human in the ai era. And so i think like the success will probably acr to one company that replaces one set of core human services like being a lawyer being an accountant you know being an artist in whatever way and that ends up being the specific vertical tool that people will use to automate and scale up their ability to do that task in an automated way because i think that there's like a great deal of capability that emerges in the fine tuning and the unique data that certain people may have to make that one tool better than the rest and therefore everyone will end up using this one lawyer service or this one accounting service or what have you. So i definitely think that's kind of what we're seeing. Yeah. I think it's pretty obvious where this is going you got co-pilots assisting a developer or a lawyer then the next or a writer then they got the next phase. Okay you've got a peer. So you're doing peer programming or somebody's kind of working alongside you're checking their work. Hey maybe they're even checking your work seeing if you have bugs where this is going to be next year is there's going to be a conductor there's going to be somebody who has a role or a piece of software has a role where you say hey you're a ceo of a company you're a founder a product manager here's your lawyer here's your accountant here's your developers here's your designer and now you will coordinate those five people now imagine how that changes startups when you as an individual have a conductor working with you and says you know what i don't know if i agree with this legal advice that's coming in relation to the tax advice. And maybe we should not even add this feature to the program let's talk to the product manager the agent product manager about taking that feature out so we don't have these downstream legal issues and we don't even have to file taxes in this you know area.

It's going to get really interesting next year when they have a conductor the other way it may go jason is you have a lawyer that has 50 associates working for them through the ai. So you don't replace the lawyer you don't replace the software engineer the software engineer level up and now the software engineer has 50 engineers available 50 agents running doing tasks for them you do still you do still need humans with domain expertise and creativity to think through architecture to think through process and to make sure that the ai agents are doing their job. So i think what it creates is extraordinary leverage for people and organizations which is why generally economic productivity goes up people don't lose jobs they level up in this phase the opex of companies will probably be cut in half.

Mhm at the limit i think jason is actually absolutely right i think you find that there'l be millions of companies with one person and then a whole layer of software and conductors and agents and bots that's the future. Yeah. So you won't have these engineering people that person should be running their own company and so you'l just have millions and millions and millions and maybe billions of companies and i think that's really exciting not all of them will work many of them will fail and a few of them will be ginormous and it'l be up to the person who can navigate and be a conductor as you said you know. Yeah be really interesting the solo entrepreneur movement of the last couple years there were all these kind of like independent hackers building one item like phil kaplan did with drro kid he just had like two or three people working on that got very big you know i was telling you guys about that slopes app i showed you. I reached out to the founder of that i was like hey tell me about the business like it's enough of a business to support one person or two people like there will be a lot of these app apps or services one conductor. And you know it makes what half million a year three million a year whatever it's enough to support one two three people working on it but previously you know you going to the venture community. Like oh what did it take a modern app company sachs to kind of build an android and a an ios app just you know five 10 years ago if we were funding one 10 years ago what would the footprint look like for you know a consumer app company if you're going to go all the way back to like the late 90s during theom era i remember that with paypal just to launch really what was an mvp we had i'd say a dozen developers. And it was pretty expensive. And we had to set up our own colo there was all this infrastructure that all got distracted away with aws then you moved to the mobile er and the app stores provide there's just a lot more developer tools lot more. Apis. Yeah well as well as distribution. But it's just it's far easier to code these apps so definitely things have gotten easier and easier that's the trend if that's the point you're trying to make it's certainly never been easier to get started in creating something if you're a solo developer. Yeah that being said i think that depending on what you're trying to do it's still usually the case that if you're trying to do something interesting and profound you're going to need a small team of developers and a couple million bucks to get you started. Yeah it used to be rul of themb i think 12 people for an app company you got two or three working on each platform a couple designers couple of testing and design.

Ux. Yeah you get to 10 12 people to run a modern one all right everybody next issue the house just passed a bill that would either ban tik tok or force a sale talked about this bill being proposed last week and things had moved really slowly on the tik tock band now they're moving really fast on wednesday the house passed the bill with a bipartisan vote of 350 2 to 65 making this one of the few subjects that members of congress can agree on biden has also signaled his intent to sign the bill into law should it pass the senate passing the senate that could be an obstacle democratic majority leader chuck schumer has signaled a lack of interest in the subject instead he'l review the bill with committee chairs before deciding on the path forward arguments for and against the bill have centered around a few main points reciprocity we talked about that here you can't use instagram x or any of our domestic social networks in china and if they won't allow us in their country why should we give them unrestricted access to ours stifling debate progressives fear this isn't really about national security their position is mainstream politicians are hoping to shut down political discourse particularly among the youth who are mostly on tik tok particularly pro palestinian and anti-israel discourse which seems to flourish on tik tok versus other platforms coincidentally joe biden launched a tik tok account last month and his comments were instantly flooded with pro palestinian remarks some calling him genocide joe third argument overreach some sax i think you've pointed out that the language in this law is a bit vague it needs to be tightened up maybe the president could go after companies supposedly aligned with foreign interest who aren't our esteemed patriot and friend keith raboy argued with you saxs on this on x and then there are guys like trump and vc who i believe are flip-flopping based on securing bags vc called ticktock digital fentanyl and trump issued an executive order calling for bik dance to divest tik tock in 20 now they're both opposing the ban and interestingly both trump and vc have ties to the republican megad dona jeffrey yas who is a major shareholder in bite dance with a reported 15 to30 billion do stake he gave vc 5 million bucks who knows what trump's gotten. But they said they're back in love sach you had this big back and forth with keith raboy on x are you in support of the divestiture or not i haven't been able to track exactly where you're at this. Well i think my take on this. And i'm gna have to revise and extend my remarks from last week cuz i didn't know as much about the bill i hadn't actually read the language. Yet. And now i have and my take on this is that the bill poses a significant risk of being patriot act 2.0 so in other words you know a threat to the security of the united states is basically hyped up some part of it may be real some of it may be threat inflation. And then we give the intelligence community and the government new powers which can then be abused and that's exactly what happened with the patriot act they ended up spying on americans now what is the potential abuse here this is a thing that i've debated with keith and there's also other people who i respect a lot and keith by the way is a very talented lawyer in addition to other things being a successful founder and investor an investor. And then you know i saw that sear and jetty whose show i was just on thinks that the bill is just fine so look there are people very legit people who disagree with me about this.

But i went last night. And i read this bill like four times to try and like parse the language. And i've just come away concluding there's no the way i see it there's no way to argue that this language isn't vague and could invite abuse and you really have to dig into it but let me just kind of walk you through i think a key part of it so first of all this bill doesn't just ban or force the destor of tik tok it goes after what it calls foreign adversary controlled applications now what is a foreign adversary there are four countries that are defined as foreign adversaries it's basically russia china iran and north korea. I'm not super worried about that list of foreign adversaries growing because that does take a bunch of procedural hoops to go through it what i am concerned about is when the bill talks about what makes a company controlled by a foreign adversary and if you go to that language which is then definition so you know what frequently happens with these bill is a lot of the meat is actually in the definitions you have to look at this very carefully it says here the term control by a foreign adversary means with respect to a covered company that such company or entity is. And then there's three categories the first category is a foreign person which can also mean a foreign corporation that's domiciled in or is headquartered or has his principal place of business or is organized under the law of foreign adversary country so that would be like bite dance. Okay bite dance is a chinese company. Okay then it says or it can be an entity where 20% of the ownership group is in that foreign person category so that would be like you let's say you had a us company but 20% of the company was owned by i don't know chinese vcs or by bite dance.

Okay that would also be a controlled by a foreign adversary then you get to the provision that i think is the most problematic which is it's a person subject to the direction or control of a foreign person or entity the novel language here is where it says subject to the direction of. Okay. It's not just saying under the control of it's saying subject to the direction of in my view that's very vague and a creative prosecutor a creative attorney general could try to say well wait a second if elon has a major tesla factory in shanghai is he subject to the direction of the chinese communist party because they could influence him they could leverage him if donald trump is accused on virtually a daily basis of being a russian asset is he subject to the direction of vladimir putin david from just tweeted very recently that he said not only trump but the entire republican party that works for trump is under the direction of russ partisan hack though like that's not like actual factual in a court. Right so this would have to be proven factual in a for it. Okay do you think. Or no well the ag could open an investigation based on the theory that for example trump owns true social and trump is under the direction of a foreign adversary i.e putin because the mainstream media continues to normalize this idea and spread this idea on virtually a daily basis so the point is that look first the ag would open an investigation you think about the sledgehammer type of remedy here that an elon or a trump or a you take rumble for example which is also accused of being a russian agent they could be forced to devest the company or to have it be banned so it gives huge i think new powers to the executive branch to pursue political opponents and political enemies whether they actually win in a court of law down the road is kind of secondary because they can vex and harass their political enemies using this power so my point is that at a minimum i think this language needs to get cleaned up i think it is way too vague and you still have the issue of whether it's a good idea or not to force the banning or divesture of tik tok but this bill goes way. Beyond it again it creates this novel category of foreign adversary controlled applications which also like i said includes websites and that means not just foreign compan but domestic companies as well that are said to be under the direction of a foreign actor so again i don't know how anyone can look at this language and not say it's too vague.

Yeah. It's easy enough tighten it up and if it was tightened up you'd be in favor of the tik tok man i take it sax or divesture i should say keep i keep saying ban you' still want the chinese government to not have control of this or bite dance. Yeah. I still have very mixed feelings about the idea of just the tik tok band because look you're talking about an app that 100 million americans use for something like 90 minutes a day so people obviously get a lot of value out of this i've yet to see the hard proof that this app is under the control of the ccp i mean i know that allegation is made i can understand why on journalists. Already. Yeah. But it's very unclear to me that they have the goods on that. And i do think that depriving americans of the right to use the app that they clearly enjoy and love based on a threat that has yet to be proven that makes me i'm deeply ambivalent about that shth if we were to look at say media channels newspapers there's been rules about foreign ownership of those do you believe tik tok kind of falls into that as sack said americans are enjoying this in a massive way 100 million plus 90 minutes a day and the statistics are crazy that actually i think argues for you know not having a foreign adversary own this or have access to it we wouldn't allow them to own cnn fox new york times washington post etc we have rules against that already so are you in favor of this tik tock divesture.

Yes. Or no. Yeah. Okay. You have it freeberg would love to have you hold on i'd like to hear i'd like to hear him expand on that. Um i'l tell you before i tell you why i'l tell you a quick story two or three months ago after joker was sick we started to make his own dog food right so to have like a super bland diet. And we had the service that was sending us food. And we got rid of it. And we would just make it ourselves and part of the meal was like some raw apples and carrots that i that i would cut up. And i would always complain to that i'm like i hate peeling these apples or whatever slicing them and taking the core out just said that for the next month and a half all i got was apple coring utensils on tik tok.

And she was like. Oh you know we should get rid of xyz food service. And she would just get plastered with these ads and it was just a reminder to me that these apps are constantly listening now that's a benign example. But my phone is on my desk when i'm talking about some really important stuff again important related to me both personal and professional there's lots of money on the line there's moments where for certain parts of my business like with crypto we have like 19 layers of people that have to you have passwords upon passwords upon passwords to do stuff the phone is always there it was just a reminder to me so i deleted tik tok. It's gone which sucks because i would relax with that app at night like you know i would have 15 20 minutes where i would de impressed it's super fun. It's a great app i have to be honest with you i love it but as a consumer that was the decision i made as a business person what i'l say is it is inconceivable to me that our voice signatures aren't being mapped and there isn't a massive sort of file and repository that is understanding what we're all saying and it's then further inconceivable to me that there isn't a service that's in identifying that this is probably davidaks and this is cham and this is freeberg. And we're not really all that important but let's take a better example this is elon musk this is the president of the united states this is or the waiter that works for the president who has his phone in his pocket while he's sitting inside the.

You know the residences of the white house so i think it's happening i think they're not the only one though i think there's america companies that are doing it too. And so i think that we need to start somewhere until we can have our apps in a market they shouldn't have their apps here. And i think that should be the end of it completely reasonable i think i'm going to disagree i think a couple points. I don't believe in the notion of like reciprocity for reciprocity sake china blocks access to us content does that mean that the us government should block access to international content i think the answer is no because this country is different than china we have afforded ourselves freedoms and liberties that don't exist in other countries freedom of choice freedom of speech freedom of the press and so on so i don't think that the government should be restricting access to content because another country restricts access to our content i think that we should make decisions based on what's right for the citizens what's right for the country what's right for national security what about spying apps so that's a that's my next point. So i do think that if there is a case to be made that there is spying or data acquisition that's going on through these apps we're not talking about rice noodles over here you know we're talking about spy. So i think if that's true then i would imagine that there are multiple paths to alleviate that like move all the servers to the us and separate the entity force a sale you know.

Like i think i don't think that it's necessarily appropriate to say that there aren't other coures or other options available to try and prohibit what should generally be prohibited which is spying on american citizens and capturing data that people you know haven't opted into being captured i do believe that citizens and people should have the right to decide if they want to have their data used to be able to access an app i actually am not a big believer that we should be paternalistic in the government sense and saying having the government come in and say here's an app and we have determined that it is not good for you because this data is being used in a manipulative way against you i think that citizens should be afforded transparency and make a decision about whether or not they want to participate i don't think i don't think citizens have the sophistication to understand what foreign adversaries again we only have four so they were named there for a reason are doing with our data and i don't think that they should have to be forced to choose i think that you know this is not dissimilar to how the fda says you're not qualified to decide whether this drug is good we will tell you and people are okay with that because you are saying this is part of the government infrastructure that's full of experts who know the totality of a subject and so the problem is in order for anybody to make a reasonable decision you'd have to share so much as to just completely blow up a bunch of national security which is not going to happen well look i think we can have audit rights and we can have rights that protect our citizens i think that's appropriate. I'l also say my final point on this i think that whether it's intentional or not this sort of action leads to inevitable cronyism and regulatory capture who does this benefit if tik tok gets banned in the us it's going to benefit meta. It's going to benefit instagram it's going to benefit a few other you know social. N it's going to benefit elon at twitter there's a few folks that are going to benefit pretty significantly if tik tok is banned because all those users are going to migrate i will also say by the way that many thousands of people make their living on tik tok like it or not it's a big income stream for a lot of people in the us and a really important part of their livelihood and just to be clear here this is not about banning tik tok this is about divesture then if it's not divested then it gets banned so if you just think from first principles here why wouldn't they divest it why would cp keep this the reason is this is a incredibly powerful tool under no circumstances would the chinese government ever allow us to have this kind of reach into their populace and if you want to judge a person you can just look at their behavior citizens in china live either in a complete police state where everything they do is tracked every transaction facial recognition every step they take every purchase they make is tracked or you're in a literal concentration camp that's how the people of china live today we are their adversary they have noted that we're their adversary under what circumstance would you think they would treat us any differently than they treat their own citizens it is absolutely insane that anybody would take the side of the ccp on this you are asking them to divest you're not asking them to shut it down that is a partisan sort of angle on this and there's a lot of partisanship going on the edges on this but what we have to realize is they would never allow us to do this to their citizens and how they treat their citizens is obvious as an example we've tried you know we tried to export sugar via mcdonald's and coke and actually they have domestic brands that they were able to support and prop up so they have more control of that too so even our downstream attempts to actually send products that theoretically over long periods of time aren't necessarily beneficial they've act they're smart enough to actually blunt. Yeah. And they don't let their kids play video games or use tik tok well even video games they saw video games are bad it's not like they're like. Oh activision come on in the doors are open they're like you can use it an hour. No i think it's like three hours a week and certain kids and on the weekends and certain kids are totally ban they have an ability to make strategic decisions that benefit their population.

And i think that we have never attempted to i'm not saying that this law is going to be great. But you'd have to be extremely naive to assume that there is nothing bad going on here with this app it doesn't mean that there's nothing bad going on with all the other apps i am assuming that all these apps have foreign actors that have infiltrated them i think that's the right posture to have i don't have instagram on my phone i don't have facebook on my phone i don't have tik tok anymore on my phone the only thing that's left is x and at some point if those apps can prove that there's a chain of custody so for example you know one thing that i thought of you could do. Is you could put some kind of like itar regulations around this so that only us citizens could work on these apps any app that is ambiently observing you. I think the overwhelming majority of people there's it's very benign implications but the whole point is that if you have 300 million people that are being observed you're going to get also the a thousand or 10,000 that are super important and you're going to catch stuff that you're not allowed to know already doing this pull up the article nick tik tok has already admitted to and been caught with their hand in the cookie jar spying on journalists we know that they're doing this already and we know their track record for spying on their own people this is the no-brainer of no-brainer decisions just divest and if they won't divest it tells you every you need to know this is super valuable to them and that algorithm is so valuable that they know they can program the us citizen i think the other problem is i'm not sure that the people with the technical sophistication will have the time to then actually go and audit the codebase to really know that there aren't any easter eggs in here and there aren't real back doors and they won't let us this is my point i think divesture should not be allowed i actually just think unfortunately this app should just be shut down and the people will migrate to instagram and the people will migrate to youtube and new prodcts and or new products and the thing there is that at least these are american controlled and are there data leaks happening in those apps probably. But it's at least not so brazenly obvious sach your thoughts i'm a little confused here are you guys saying that the chinese government uses tik tok to spy on its own population or they ban it because they think it's harmful. No they ban tik tock bear because it's harmful. No they have complete control over tik tok. Yes. And they control that in their country they use camera sacks and you know this full well on every single corner with facial recognition and every one of their phones is tracked you know this full well saxs they are spying tik tok or not no they have banned tik tok they have a different version called they a different version.

Yeah. And in that version and they push ma dian's algorithms are very different they push educational content there's so basically like on the on the bike dance board what happened with this whole thing is the ceo and the founder had to step down effectively right they brought in effectively new management and in that the ccp h is a board a board director and has what's called the golden vote so they effectively decide. And so what you saw were the algorithms morph over time from pure entertainment to things that pushed a lot of educational content they also then imposed broadly speaking li on content that they didn't like they would only allow in other apps experiences where they also have a board seat now and a golden vote as jason said games can only be played in certain apps for certain amounts of time so they've made their own decisions about what's good for their own population the flavor of the app that's here my biggest point is that again you have to pick the lesser evil i think it's pretty reasonable to assume that all these apps are infiltrated but this one is more brazen because it is really the only one that's completely and obviously foreign control and i don't think that if you tried to divest it you will get any assurance that code is reliable and so you'd have to build the whole thing from scratch all over again for what it's worth the company has said that they're willing to move all of their hosting in the us to oracle data centers in the us david. You. And i know what that means like could you imagine a migration like that who is going to look at every single endpoint every single line of code that is a joke that's meant to elay people who are non-.

Technical right y. 100% i kind of agree with that. All right seems like we're i don't know if we're 2v2 here but look are you bann or not bann sax with the language is corrected are you ban or divest or what i'm ambivalent about it because i'm open to the idea wow of banning a foreign app in this way but the reason why i'm a little bit ambivalent about it is because a i think that what they're doing has to be proven as opposed to just a bunch of hand waving over it and when you start talking about what's happening to the wagers and concentration camps and spying that has nothing to do with this particular app and in fact you've revealed this app doesn't even function in china. I think there just a lot of hand waving going on not a lot of hard proof and i don't think that one little story in the new york times i would consider hard proof i agree with saxs. Yeah. So that's number one is. I'm open to this idea. But i want to see hard proof number two is. I don't think you're going to get it. I think the nsa and the cia will read in the intelligence committee and there's a subcommittee that's probably been read in. But i can guarantee you the american public will not get rid in on what and mansion said on cnbc today by the way that you know he has based on his information he believes strongly that they should divest whether it's to his group or another group but these guys have lied so many times about so many things i mean i just think the public has a right to know look if 100 million americans are going to be deprived of using an app they love why can't we get a little bit more information exactly what that app has done wrong they're saying it they're saying it's in control it's being controlled by a foreign adversary they are saying it the bill says it what is debatable they're telling you all that means all that means is that the app is owned by bite dance which is here's what's unique about this bill incorporated here's what here's what's unique about this bill it got out of committee 50 to zero it was overwhelmingly approved by both sides of the house and it looks like in the senate there may be some refinements that happen. But it's going to get largely overwhelmingly approved there as well it's patriot act hold on it's a very unique moment in time where you see in today's political landscape such uniformity and again i'm not going to go and defend these folks but except to say that where there's smoke there's probably fire. And i think that in this specific narrow case again we're not talking about food stuffs or lumber right we're talking about a technological application that is observing a lot of people on a continuous 24x7 basis i suspect this law would not have gotten out of committee 50 to zero had they not been read in by the nsa and the cia and that will never see the light of day because we will never be disclosed that information. Okay. So it could have been 49 to1 david you know what i mean another ideological. I could see it being 40 to 10 if it's ideological i could be seeing it 35 to 15 48-2 it was 50 to zero.

So was the patriot act look there's an old saying in washington that the worst ideas are bipartisan these guys were all being stampeded into this act they brought it up and passed it with hardly any debate i've already shown you how the language of the bill is overly broad it's not just a tik tock ban it says that any app or website did you know that any app or website domestically that's subject to the direction of a foreigner from one of these count countes four countries north korea. Russia china ir. I said a foreigner from one of those countries. Yeah. I'm trying to make clear for the audience all you got to do is make that argument if you're an ag who wants to go after one of our domestic platforms that's all you got to do to bring them under your thumb what would be the proper route if a us platform was in fact compromised by the chinese north koreans or iran what would be the proper path in your mind wouldn't that concern you if an app is sharing us data in a way that it shouldn't then why wouldn't it just be prosecuted this is saying right the ags would go no it's not it's not it's not even it's banning tik tok okay subject to maybe divesture happens. But there's a lot of people who think that the six months they're giving for this is just not going to work and the chinese government may not go for the idea of allowing tik tok to be bought by an american company because they may not like the prent that creates so again i think you're answering your own question i think you're making a very important and good point which is there's so much body of business law here. And there's so many state ags who would want to make their bones. And you see the state ags trying to build their credibility going after facebook for sexual exploitation and all of this stuff there to your point david there is such a body of lawsuits and law and precedent that tik tok could have been proseed under it's very odd and rare that there's been a complete dant where this thing came on from up above and everybody just got on board and all i'm saying is in these very rare and unique instances where somebody sheld their own personal political aspirations probably opposite that we don't know my alarm bells go off when dc acts with this kind of unanimity because the only time they ever do that when they become a unip part is when the national security state wants some new power i agree with you this how we got into the almost unanimous this is how we got into the patriot act saying it's right. I'm not saying every dumb idea that gives the federal government more power ends up being almost unanimous in you're absolutely right. And i'm agreeing with you they were read in at a national security level that got them to become a unip party on this topic we are never going to get.

And i'm just you know responding to freeberg we are never going to get read in we the people because of this like phony concern about they always like classification when they don't want the public to know something now by the way important shouldn't be secret give us the proof why can't they give us the proof i don't think it needs to be proof it's the potential damage here that they're saying is the problem sachs they could wake up this algorithm at any point in time and they could steer people's thinking they have already steered it your party has talked incessantly about how tik tock has steered cultural issues in a certain direction thus libs of tick tock all this kind of stuff there is ample evidence that these social networks and these videos do influence young people. So if young people are addicted to this which they clearly are and if young people are influenced by this which they clearly are those are just facts that are indisputable the chinese could wake this up at any time and steer political issues left right center cause chaos it is the potential harm here sachs that is the concern it's not just that they're doing it now it's that they could do it in the future and if you were to take this and you were to put let's say this was north korea or iran. Would your would you allow north korea or iran to own this app in the united states of course he wouldn't i think my point would be the same which is i want to see some proof hold on let me make a couple of points number one i want to see some proof that this is actually spyware that to me has been alleged and if it's as such a sl on cases you say why is there no proof of this so that's point number one and by the way if the phone is just sitting there passively listening to you and that's the spyware apple should really address that because app shouldn't be able to do that. Right. So that's like apple's problem with respect to the data supposedly being leaked to the communist party again i want to see what data are we talking about like what tik tok videos i like what's important about that data there are bundles of data that are available on the open market that they can buy about users i don't think that's what it is these microphones are on 247 these apps are allowed to passively listen in the background then why don't we just tell apple not to allow that i think that could be a partial solve too well what about android your phone should not be passively listening to you should have to like stick it in your face and talk to it if you want to activate the micr. The problem is when you download these apps you create these settings and so you try to you have to try to convince a 100 million people that hey you shouldn't do that maybe you should only do it when you use the app in a specific way and it kills the usability and so people get lazy and they're like ah default on look what i'm saying here is that the way the microphone should work on apple products is that i think it. That. Yeah. It should i think it does work that way i don't know if that the listening in like the key issue here. Well i mean who knows what's possible in terms of hacking and spyware you know those are all you know unknowns. So. Okay. So one by one we're kind of knocking out all these issues it's not passively listening the data that it's collecting doesn't does seem that important with respect to steering i agree i guess that's a theoretical problem.

But you could say that about any of these apps and you're on a slippery slope to basically a first amendment problem because they're not letting users get the content that they actually want. All right i guess we disag and then and then look. And then one final point about the reciprocity argument is if you want to make this about reciprocity then put it in a trade bill that's where you deal with reciprocity is you say okay these products from china get to play in us markets our products from the united states get to play in chinese markets you do it through a trade bill this is not a trade bill this gives a new power to the government to define foreign adversary controlled applications and websites free just want to give you a chance to answer the two questions are you in favor of divestiture if it was iran who owned the app would you feel differently i don't know about divestiture until to sax's point. I just. I haven't heard a clear point of view or clear like piece of information about what this app uniquely does that other apps don't do that creates a threat i it's just not clear to me so in general i'm not in fan of like forcing companies to divest and forcing things to be shut down and taking away human consumer choice i just don't think those are good things generally. Okay. And i'm not to sa this point. I'm just not compelled that there's something here based on what i've seen and then like if iran owned tik tok i don't care who owns it based on my prior statement.

I think people should have choice to use what they want to use provided that there is no spying if there's spying i want to know that there're spying and how it's happening we need to technically fix that if someone can passively turn on a microphone on an app and listen to people in a room pretty smart scientists we've proven that it's possible they can also we should fix also that's a bigger problem then you need to shut down all the iphones we have there's an israeli software company we all know what it's called we all can go and license a software from them. Okay they will help you do this. So i'm sorry patch. But that's not apple needs to patch it that's exactly right that's problem i don't want a domestic app to be able to do that to me. Yeah. Exactly it is happening and it hasn't been fixed and it's not that it hasn't been fixed the point is when you have a large technical surface area you guys know this there are bugs.

All the time like we deal with for example threat factors all the time into like microsoft has dealt with these for 50 years right every new update of windows every little thing has all these little back doors and little threads that weren't cleaned up properly so this is an ongoing whack-a-mole problem and the reality is that a very small technical team has and always been able to stay a few steps ahead of apple and many of these apps and all i'm saying is you should just not be so naive as to assume that this apple is something that this is something apple can fix i think that a small talented team of hackers whoever they work for will always be able to find these back doors in every single new release of every single operating system and they will be a few steps ahead. So. But then we're screwed anyway because all the data is already out there so i think the point is so knowing that if you want to maybe minimize the surface area of how bad this data leaks to just the foreign actors that have infiltrated our american companies you can ban tik tok. Okay if you want to just open the door to it keep it around look. I like i said at the beginning i'm ambivalent about this because if you can prove to me that there's really a national security threat and that your remedy for dealing with it is narrowly tailored then i'm potentially on board with this. But i don't believe the threat has been proven. And i certainly don't think the remedy is narrowly tailored in fact it's expansive. And it's going to lead to weaponization. And i don't trust the government to define new categories of foreign controlled applications and websites i think you're probably right which is the unfortunate part. But i do think that there's enough of these folks that have been read into something that we're not being told. And i have zero faith in that. Yeah. I'm not i'm not going to say that it's accurate or not. But i'm saying i suspect that some body of work from a three-letter agency has made its way to enough of these people under confidentiality where they've all agreed the national security state has a secret reason for wanting to expand his powers that this doesn't fill me with any confidence again patriot act 2.0 that's where i started with this i don't think this is the patriot act because the patriot act was like i'm gonna have now a broad license to probe anything i want this is about saying this thing that is here can no longer be here. So. But it's not focused on tik tok. It's focused on again first foreign controll applications which includes websites the patriot act was about the government being able to go proactively wherever they wanted when they weren't allowed that is not what this bill says this bill is more reactive and saying okay you out of the sandbox and all i'm saying is you're right that could be abused but that's very different than the patriot act which was very agg aggressive. All right so there you have it folks two people looks like agree with the divesture two people have a difference of opinion let's. No i don't agree with the divest. I think it should be shut down. Okay shut down. Yeah so shut down divesture looks like lots of opinions that's good lots of opinions that's good. Okay.

I think we just had more debate over this than the entire us congress did perhaps. I mean i think that's why people listen to this program is because we're literally getting into the absolute finest details and asking really probing questions saxs that you love 100 million people are soon gon to be asking when tik tok gets shut down 100 million people who used it every day are going to be like why did this happen i'm gonna say something about that one of my kids. And i'm not going to say who it is we recently had them tested for adhd they weren't doing particularly great in school the response by some of the folks in the school was. Oh there's meds for that we're like no meds and what we did. Was we took away their ipad and we completely deprived them of all these apps and video games i cannot describe to you the magnitude of the turnaround in this kit grades incredible where they were getting 60% and 70% now getting 90% totally engaged interesting charming kid that had lost a little bit. And i think that there was a little bit of a daz. And i just want to say that in general as a parent whether the app is banned or not who cares my lived experience right now is that video games and these apps are horrible for kids this is a known fact actually jamat i looked into this as well it turns out students who used ipads and digital media many times a day they show the exact signs of adhd in attention and hyper activity and impulsivity so whether you think adhd is a real diagnosis or not it's inducing those symptoms i'm willing to say that my child probably had a very light form of it maybe it was exacerbated by these video games and the ipad and these apps and you know they were getting all the tik tok content. But they were getting it on youtube alerts all this anyways went to zero not like you can have a little bit here or there zero and the transformation in this last month and a half two months has been incredible i don't know if other parents are dealing with this but what i'l tell you is the's apps are not good. So this whole consumer choice thing i think my view is a little tainted because i get agitated as a responsible parent i'm like just get this app out of here and i already know that i'm addicted to it. And it's not good for me i have no idea what it's doing to my kids. And i just don't want to deal with it if you if you look at the correlation between all of these symptoms showing growing up in kids it's basically the introduction of the iphone and so people are kind of reaching consensus that the iphone and distraction adhd spiking depression all this stuff anxiety and kids is correlating with too much screen time you can do your own research folks maybe it correlates with prescription of ssris maybe it with schools going totally woke and bananas i cor a lot of things co coely exacerbated it when you look at the trend lines for sure and the ssris and those kind of things being prescribed is probably as a result of these adhd symptoms coming from screen time. And then it's probably unnecessary i think people just got a lot more prescription happy like they're just definitely that over prescription they're willing to put kids on drugs for i mean you talk about adhd for young boys that's kind of like just normal behavior. Yeah. No absolutely like kids running around outside and having energy if i had to pick an age i would say 16 17 18 years old for social media and for phones i would say 15 or 16 you know with a very controlled phone.

So that's just one person's opinion all right florida is on the verge of banning lab grown meat freberg can you tee this up for us. Yeah. So florida's been debating a bill in their state legislature since november and it just passed the house and the senate a vote of 86 627 in the house 2820 in the senate to prohibit the manufacturing sale holding or distribution of cultivated meat and it basically makes the sale or ownership of cultivated meat a second-degree misdemeanor this is lab grown meat and this bill is now on desantis's desk for signing you know i'l kind of highlight a little bit of the motivation and some of the technical background and my point of view on it if that's okay do you see him eating the meat while you're talking about did you see him eating the me. I'm paying attention unlike you guys he's got this like flintstone size ham hog we listen goad it feels like a like a non-issue to folks who eat meat and don't care. But i just want to point out how much this is generally a challenge to enabling choice in new innovative technology which you know we've seen attempts at this in the past. But what is the reason what is the reason to ban lab grown meat to ban in florida the motivation is that florida ranchers felt threatened the guy who just has been advocating for banning tik tok this whole show is now accusing florida of being into banning are you your boy s loves to i'm the only person on this pod who actually freeberg is too who are skeptical of like does knee-jerk banning everything ban everything i would not ban this i didn't say to ban everything where's that coming from joke we're joking don't label me with your jcal brush that a bad everything i just it's definitely becoming a minority position to be against government intervention in free decision making and commerce by individual citizens florida ranchers felt that their livelihood was threatened they have a billion dollar ranching business a year in florida good for them they should go ahead and compete with whatever new technology is emerging i would say try a little role reversal imagine if you know governments and states tried to ban the use of the track for fear of putting agricultural workers out of business or you know software companies that did accounting software got banned because it could put accountants out of business or electric car production and use got banned because it could put traditional automotive manufacturers out of business you could go down the list and you could create this position on nearly any new or emerging technology that feels threatening to an incumbent industry and ultimately it really only yields to regulatory capture and to a lack of choice and oper opportunity for new innovation and for consumers to make decisions about what they want and the irony here is that so much of what's being consumed in the market space today part of their rationalization is oh. Well it's new technology we don't know if it's good for you we don't know if it's going to work the truth is there are federal regulatory bodies that have oversight on the sort of thing 20 years ago almost all the cheese that we ate in the united states was made from renet renit is an enzyme that converts the protein and milk into cheese we got renit from the stomach of cat we would scrape it out and sell rent it and it would be used to make cheese then rec combinant engineering where we could put we could get bacteria or yeast cells to make proteins this technology unlocked the opportunity to make renit more affordably so rather than go and slaughter calvs and get the ren out of their stomach we engineer the bacteria or the yeast cell to make the exact same protein and that is now the entirety of the ren industry is recombinantly produced renit and the entirety of cheese that we all consume is made using this genetically modified yeast that makes this enzyme that converts milk into cheese the same is true across other industries we used to use animal fat for laundry detergent turned out it was a lot cheaper to make enzymes using the same process i just described instead of making animal fat and now all of our laundry detergent is rec common in enzymes.

So i think like this notion that we're going to ban this stuff is a regulatory capture incumbency moment it's totally wrong it denies consumer choice and frankly it flies in the face of what has historically been a real economic opportunity to bring cost down to bring new innovation to market and to try and stall that innovation is going to leave this state or this country in a real kind of challenge compared to other countries i just think it's wrong. I think it's really on this topic you are. 100% right you're right. This is a dumb thing to legislate and it is meaningless and unimpactful and people should just decide based on what tastes better is that's different than a listening device or cheap freeberg is it is the criticism of this that it's regulatory capture or it's part of like this anti-woke kind of vibes in florida there's a conservative movement in florida which has taken hold which i think this is key to now in some ways i would argue that conservative movement has really important sociological points of view in other cases i think it denies necessary innovation it denies necessary advancement to move industry forward versus social change. And i think the ability to kind of auscap the two that. Oh you know transgenderism in schools and elementary schools is the same as the woke leftists from california making you know lab grown meet.

And they all get kind of jammed together as one big tribal group. And therefore we should ban it all what will likely end up happening here is this will find its path to federal preemption historically when we've seen states try to impose these sorts of bans the companies that are ultimately affected the innovators that are affected go to the federal government and they try and legislate for a bill that says this stuff is legal and should be broadly available that federal preemption then stops state's rights on having a ban in place. And so it's very likely that we'l end up seeing some legislation here over the next couple of years if this technology is ultimately beneficial the problem is now that florida's done this i guarantee you're going to see texas which is a huge ranching state and many other states step up to do it creates a really bad precedent for all other disruptive kind of industries to be blocked by their local economies that believe that they're under threat. And you know it just creates like a lot of unnecessary chaos so sx what is desantis's beef with fake meat i don't know i don't know i don't know what he's gonna do in this case but let me let me state clearly what i think which is i think it's really terrible when a bunch of incumbents in an industry get together and try to shut out the innovative solution by inventing some unproven threat that they turn into some sort of about tik tok. Right. But exactly but enough about tik tok about i see around the corner from that's why i wanted to talk about this because i think the two are so similar they're not similar at all well they're not sim go ahead se. No regulatory capture is regulatory capture but this is a far that's just a term of art we're just you fair enough. Yeah we disagree on. Yeah that's fine fair enough.

I think you guys have to have the intellectual honesty to say these are different issues one is lab grown meat versus ranchers in america this is typical corruption and cronyism fine. Whatever. Okay. Oh yeah. But you don't think you don't think that the the other tech companies that compete with tik tok are secretly banning together to basically jin up this bill i don't think they're secet. I don't think they're secretly banning i think that they're being over they're overtly organizing just like the ranchers but again that typically still always gets cut on partisan lines and what i'm saying is this is totally different than lab grown me versus ranchers i just want to say one thing the intellectual the similarities. I think i just want to make a point here i think the intellectual discourse on this program is second to none i mean we are getting into the most refined details of this issue and you just don't hear this anywhere else. So i just want to give myself and the rest of the crew a patter in the back you just want to masturbate i. Yeah. I just want to. Yeah. No. I mean we really did get in pretty in the weeds here jel do you agree that the florida bill is ridiculous and that it sets a terrible precedent i didn't read it.

But i would think that's exactly what there's nothing special about it i can't imagine why somebody would want to ban mock meat other than crony capitalism of course and my question to you is when is this going to taste good when are you gonna make this mock me well by the way this film makes no sense because the only reason they would do it is if they were afraid that the lab grown meat was just so much cheaper and frankly so much tastier than what they make and freeberg you've said this many times like we are so like orders of magnitude away from. Yeah. We're 10 years. But by the way why try and stop it from competing let the vcs that want to throw money at it throw money at it let the scientists pursue it let the let the thing that's made america so successful be successful by the way imagine elon got the starship up today you guys saw this thing it went into orbit. It was unb incredible imagine if boeing and a bunch of defense contractors got together 10 years ago and said we got to stop spacex. These guys are trying to do stuff in an they tried. And they tried and they will keep trying and the freedom that we aff people and buses in the united states of america is what allows us to have our unique edge and our unique ability to create progress that you don't see anywhere else on planet earth and this is the sort of sh that takes us backwards you just said the key word we us america back to back to the tik tok thing that's not an us thing that's a chinese thing i get the point i'm not like i'm not pro ccp.

But. Yeah. I get the point anything american god bless us let's go american exceptionalism. No i saw the headlines i think cnbc reported that the rocket blew up on entry re-entry they i they didn't say that did they. I saw one headline where they had to put a little neag in the end of the sentence there was starling video for like an hour it's nut the video was so crystal clear. It was like hd of this rocket coming back down to earth it was bonkers so congrats to e can i show you guys the most incredible tweet related to this i'm just to send this to you nick friendly reminder that google's annual catering budget is 72 million about twice the cost of sh. I mean it isut today elon made the entire human race multiplanetary. Yeah. And it costs half as much as what google spends on food that's incredible it does seem like doesn't seem like a lot of money to spend on food. I it does seem like these rockets take two or three the new each time there's a new platform it seems to take elon exactly like two or three to nail it. And here we are again you know. You know so congrats to our boy great job this going back full circle the persistence and the resilience that was needed to get this thing to happen it's just like 20 years of stepbystep iterative nothing about the initial kind of instantiation or concept of you know what spacex needed to walk to get here was right everything had to change along the way starling came along etc. Etc and here he is at the end of this period of time with this incredible craft the largest object to ever fly in outer space it really is like an incredible moment in human history and it took the degree of persistence resilience that was. I think marks what makes american entrepreneurship so powerful it really is an incredible day it was an amazing thing to watch i don't know if any of you guys have ever gone watch and watch any of the old saturn launches on youtube. But i think this is a new era it's really. Inc. I think this was like five or six years ago i got cleared to basically fly and hug renberg when they were doing a launch.

And so i was able to see it as the thing like kind of like tried to approach max q it's one of the most incredible things i've ever done. So i think we made some progress if you look at the google news links a lot of praise for this launch. So. Yeah looks like people are kind of getting it. Yeah. Just incredible i mean this thing is so huge i don't know if you've ever been inside of one of these things but. The starship. Yeah. I've been inside. I was inside the first one they built it is so large the capacity of this thing is like i think you could fit like three four 500 human beings inside of it maybe when we do our austin poker kn night we can stop over and see it be really fun bonkers and when you see it stacked the height is like it almost feels like you're looking at cgi in real in the real world it is incredibly tall like incredibly tall.

All right listen this is your favorite podcast in the world episode 170 of the allin podcast we never asked for this. But if you have a chance we do the show on video so if you're listening to audio just type in all-in podcast in youtube and you can see the four of us i don't know if that's a bonus feature or not. But we do all the graphs and the charts and everything here all right four david saxs the rainman david freeberg your assulted of science shth potia chairman dictator i am the world's greatest moderator as david saxs will attest with all those incredibly always go christopher walkin whenever you do these outs why do you do that thanks for listening to the allin podcast. Wow david sacks poignant points about regulatory capture freeberg wes mock meats not for me chamas everyone loves a great dictator we'l see you next time all in podcast. Wow love you boys so good your better impression everyone's got their superpower that's your super nasty jal butu it. I'm coming on i'm coming on. All in all right. Sax inv saxy poo invited me walk's better than your trump i got to work on i turned the trump off for three years give me a break i'm gonna can you a joe pesi can you do a joe peshy do i have a joe pesi in me i feel like you do a good joe pes. I do i do. I'l bring you a joe pesi next i take request i'l do a joe pesi next week sure why not he only does the peshy involuntarily when he gets in the chopper everybody you got a short i'm running for i'm running for president you got to change the laws trump you have to change it so a german can be president austrian. Yeah. All right. We. Oh yeah rate and subscribe and all that other if you want bye let your winners ride rainman david and instead we open source it to the fans and they've just gone crazy with it love you queen. of besties are that's my dog taking a your driveway. Oh man myit meet we should all just get a room and just have one big huge orgy cuz they're all just us.

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